Vatican II Difficult Statements
Note: We here fully submit to the Catholic Church and her traditional teachings. Our responses to the texts are speculation, not official statements of the Church.
We acknowledge Vatican II as a legitimate Council and binding on the faithful in all matters that adhere to the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church.
We here call into question the statements that appear to contradict the traditional teachings of the Church (including past Magisterial teachings.)
Heresy proxima
#15 “(Protestants and Orthodox) are joined to us in the Holy Spirit...some have shed their blood for the faith”
Potentially this is true, actually it is not!
#16 “the Moslems...together with us adore one merciful God”
Blasphemy.
Koran says the notion of God being a Trinity is excrement.
We acknowledge Vatican II as a legitimate Council and binding on the faithful in all matters that adhere to the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church.
We here call into question the statements that appear to contradict the traditional teachings of the Church (including past Magisterial teachings.)
#8: “tradition develops...there is a growth in understanding... through the contemplation and study made by believers...through the intimate understanding of spiritual things they experience, and through the preaching...the Church constantly moves toward the fullness of divine truth”
No.
The Church is in possession of the full truth. The Church cannot approach truth. Tradition does not change due to the pondering of believers and the experiences are irrelevant. The only growth is in the deepening of the understanding.
#5: The Church does not “grow to maturity,” it is perfect.
Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis said it's heresy to say the Church grows or matures.
The Church is indefectible, not her members.
Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis said it's heresy to say the Church grows or matures.
The Church is indefectible, not her members.
#8: The Church is said to “subsist” in the Catholic Church.
Very close to heresy.
Very close to heresy.
The Church of Christ does not subsist in the Catholic Church, it is the Catholic Church.
#8 “many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside (the Church)...they are forces impelling towards Catholic unity.”
(The text says we want to unite with the heretics and schismatics, as they allegedly have “elements of sanctification” they must subsist in the Church of Christ.
Heresy
Against dogma of the Church- The Church is always unified- One
Against dogma of the Church- The Church is always unified- One
The elements of sanctification (e.g. baptism) is not outside the Catholic Church but is a sacrament illicitly used outside the Church. It is property of the Church.
#15- “The Church recognizes that she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety”
Heresy proxima
We aren't linked to heretics and schismatics.
Aquinas said denying one article of Faith causes the virtue of Faith to corrupt.
The Church has dogmatically defined heretics and schismatics as outside the Church.
The Church has dogmatically defined heretics and schismatics as outside the Church.
#15 “(Protestants and Orthodox) are joined to us in the Holy Spirit...some have shed their blood for the faith”
Heresy
Against the Council of Florence and Pope Eugene IV who said that “heretics even if they think they are shedding their blood for Christ cannot be saved.”
Against the Council of Florence and Pope Eugene IV who said that “heretics even if they think they are shedding their blood for Christ cannot be saved.”
#16 “Those who have not yet received the gospel are related in various ways to the People of God”
Potentially this is true, actually it is not!
The Jews and Muslims don’t worship the same God.
Do Jews worship the God of the New Testament (the Blessed Trinity)? No.
Is the God of the Old Testament the same as the God of the New? Yes
Therefore, the Jews have rejected the God of the Old Testament and we don’t worship the same God.
#16 “the Moslems...together with us adore one merciful God”
Blasphemy.
Koran says the notion of God being a Trinity is excrement.
Side note- Koran says to kill infidels; big mosque in Jerusalem says “God has no son”
#12 “all things on earth should be related to man as their center and summit.”
No
This is Luciferian because it puts man in the position of God.
#88 “Christians should collaborate willingly and wholeheartedly in the establishment of an international order...”
Condemned by
St Pius X in Paschendi Domenichi Gregious
Also, many private revelations warns against a one world government
#1- “One of the goals (of the liturgy) is to nurture unity among all who believe in Christ.
Condemned
Pius XI in Mortalium Animos condemns that unity doesn’t already exist- The Church is One
Union can only be promoted by promoting the return to the Church.
The Church is always in union with itself.
Protestants and Orthodox are outside the Church.
They are not our sister church as Pope JPII and others say.
#7- speaks of multiple presences. Distinctions aren’t made.
Not heretical but confusing
proposition poorly expressed
[Cheryl wedding story]
#14- active participation is to be considered before all else”.
Conducive to heresy
The most important thing is to keep the tradition of Mass.
22.2- some of the liturgy will be decided not by the Holy See, but by the local Bishop.
[Fr Tom on 1960s constant changes]
25- liturgy is to be revised as soon as possible and experts are to be consulted.
Why such a rush for a liturgical reform?
Violates the virtue prudence and piety
Also, who were the experts: led by Archbishop Annibale Bugnini (possible mason) and included 7 Protestant ministers.
#46- modernist language- Saying Latin is preserved but then vernacular can be incorporated.
Pius VI in Auctorum Fidei says Modernists write so it can be interpreted in two ways. Pius VI says the purpose of a Council is to clarify doctrine.
Pius X in Paschendi Dominici Gregious condemns ambiguity in saying that a Modernist tricks is to give you some Catholic doctrine on one hand but take away some Catholic doctrine on the other.
#8- common worship...is left to prudent decision of the local episcopal authority, unless the local Bishops’ Conference...or the Holy See, has determined otherwise.”
Condemned
Common worship (communicatio insacris) with false religions has been condemned and been under the pain of excommunication for more than 1500 years.
#17 “...sometimes one tradition has expressed aspects of the faith in a clearer manner.”
This is daring.
There is no such thing as a truth expressed better in another Church, even those united to Rome.
#1 “A sense of dignity of the human person has been impressing itself more and more deeply on the consciousness of contemporary man”
Pius X says man has no dignity outside of bring a Christian.
#2 “The Vatican Synod declares the human person has the right to religious freedom.” “the right to religious freedom has as its foundation the very dignity of the human person...”
Condemned by
Gregory XVI in Mirari Vos
Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors
#4 Requests civil authorities to give complete freedom for all schismatic, heretical, and pagan sects to spread their error.
Condemned by Pius IX in Syllabus of Errors.
Traditionally government would have to submit to the Papal authority.
Pius XI Quas Primas. Christ is King over all nations.
This document never mentions Christ the King or his rights over all men.
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